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Post by mrsarfa on Dec 3, 2014 12:41:47 GMT -5
I hate to say this, but I think Tamilin is showing her age. Compared to all the other characters, she's extremely one-dimensional. With Selen being an awesome melee damage dealer and with Pinning Shot being such a great ranged talent, it's hard to justify including Tami in a party. I feel like all the other characters have multiple paths that they can take -- Vraes can be a monster of a tank or a reaver-style damage dealer; KJ can be an attack-heavy ranged damage dealer or buff/debuff support; Fyona can be a tank or a damage dealer or a support; etc. Tami, though, is a bowman. She's a good one, to be sure, but that's all she can be. I'd like to see her reworked a bit to give additional dimensions.
How about it? Am I the only one that thinks so? Let's take a poll: How often do you use Tami in your parties?
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Post by fallen on Dec 3, 2014 12:52:53 GMT -5
Haha, I love her Nuclear Critical Style.
I like the good mix of options in the poll - well thought out.
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Post by CdrPlatypus on Dec 3, 2014 13:04:19 GMT -5
I marked occasionally, but the truth is rarely. One of my basic team building rules is that if I'm not including KJ, then I run selen to cover the -parry and -armour. so that automattically takes Tam out of half of my potential builds. Also I find myself always missing selen's +mp buff.
Tam does one thing really well. Ranged Physical dmg.
Basically I run Tam like this. The four Original, Or Kincaid, Kyera, KJ Tam. any other combination and I miss out on -parry, -armour, and an early -aoe curse (by lvl 6)
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Post by En1gma on Dec 3, 2014 14:35:26 GMT -5
I just can't use her... I've made threads about this before, and still have only two groups that use her, and neither of them are up to Oskahold... She does spectacular amounts of damage, but taking Selen out of the equation forces me to use Fyona as an off tank, which removes Ethereal Anguish from the group strategy, which forces either Frigid Air, which locks you into Vincent, Reckoning, or Crippling Strikes, leaving you without an armour/parry/dodge curse, and therefore weakening more group strategies than she alleviates.
Yes she is a stone cold killer, but at the cost of the entire strategy of so, so many groups. Groups could be built around Vraes and the selfishness that came with him, but Tam just isn't worth subbing out the best character in the game. I don't say that lightly- Selen makes every group she joins better just because she can fill any role any group needs, from Melee specialist, to pure debuff, to Neo-off-tank, to ranged nightmare, Selen can do it all. Tam just kills things.
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Post by mrsarfa on Dec 3, 2014 16:11:52 GMT -5
I just can't use her... I've made threads about this before, and still have only two groups that use her, and neither of them are up to Oskahold... She does spectacular amounts of damage, but taking Selen out of the equation forces me to use Fyona as an off tank, which removes Ethereal Anguish from the group strategy, which forces either Frigid Air, which locks you into Vincent, Reckoning, or Crippling Strikes, leaving you without an armour/parry/dodge curse, and therefore weakening more group strategies than she alleviates. Yes she is a stone cold killer, but at the cost of the entire strategy of so, so many groups. Groups could be built around Vraes and the selfishness that came with him, but Tam just isn't worth subbing out the best character in the game. I don't say that lightly- Selen makes every group she joins better just because she can fill any role any group needs, from Melee specialist, to pure debuff, to Neo-off-tank, to ranged nightmare, Selen can do it all. Tam just kills things. I absolutely could not have said it better myself. Awesome explanation and you've hit on the exact reasons that I feel she needs a re-work. |
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Post by slayernz on Dec 3, 2014 16:44:36 GMT -5
Man, I actually like using Tami - in fact sometimes I use Tami over Selen just because Tam's got the range thing sorted. Yes, she's a bit less flexible in terms of combat - you have her rear-guard rather than front and center, but then look at Legolas. He pretty much ONLY used his bow - even in melee! Aimed Shot is great for pin-point strikes, and when you are able to use Ranged Onslaught, she's downright scary. Crits + Ranged Onslaught means things die very very quickly. That means you do need to invest in Deadly Intuition and Silent Stalker too.
Selen, on the other hand, only has pinning shot with her range. It's great, but when you're just wanting to take out one or two enemies, it's a little expensive in SP. I'd love a single-target "aimed shot" equivalent for Selen. Yes, Selen has melee, but because I'm coming across parties of archers and the like, I'm still needing to spend more than 70% of Selen's offensive capabilities in ranged combat rather than the stabby stabby.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 16:51:32 GMT -5
I generally agree with the sentiments expressed here. I use Selen almost exclusively but I'm hoping to build out Tamilin to really experience all this crit madness that everyone talks about.
Do people think that the changes in the Farsight rules or the (potentially) upcoming implementation of lock pick or disarm rules will make Tamilin more appealing? The sense I get from her description in game is that she's especially sneaky and thief-y. Both of these characters right now can get by with level one talents in all of these areas. If the rules are implemented or changed, I think that will put more pressure on Selen to not be the jack of all trades that she is now and will highlight how effective Tam can be with a smaller talent point pool devoted to combat.
Thoughts?
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Post by fallen on Dec 3, 2014 16:59:51 GMT -5
... but taking Selen out of the equation forces me to use Fyona as an off tank, which removes Ethereal Anguish from the group strategy, which forces either Frigid Air, which locks you into Vincent, Reckoning, or Crippling Strikes, leaving you without an armour/parry/dodge curse, and therefore weakening more group strategies than she alleviates. Yes she is a stone cold killer, but at the cost of the entire strategy of so, so many groups. This sounds like the point of having different characters. You can't use the same strategies with the two different stealth characters. |
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Post by mrsarfa on Dec 3, 2014 17:15:31 GMT -5
fallen - I think En1gma's point was that Selen lends herself to so many different group strategies and Tami does not. It comes back to my initial argument about Tami being too one-dimensional.
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Post by slayernz on Dec 3, 2014 17:47:16 GMT -5
Tami is ranged death (very effective) Selen is ranged + melee Both offer stealth benefits (far sight, lock picking, trap detection) If you have Fyona in your party, perhaps Tami is your better option, because Fyona's lethal as a melee char. If you have Kyera, then having the extra Melee of Selen could be good to offset Kyera's vegetarian, save the plants and planet type of view  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 17:48:39 GMT -5
Man, I actually like using Tami - in fact sometimes I use Tami over Selen just because Tam's got the range thing sorted. Yes, she's a bit less flexible in terms of combat - you have her rear-guard rather than front and center, but then look at Legolas. You had me at Legolas... |
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Post by Zhivago on Dec 3, 2014 18:28:46 GMT -5
I think the only thing she's really missing is a +mp skill. I'm working on a viable Nightmare group with Tamilin. It doesn't have much margin for error though.
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Post by Brutus Aurelius on Dec 3, 2014 22:04:35 GMT -5
Tamlilin is great with +Crit, +Dmg, Deadly Intuistion, and Aimed Shot. Her Ranged Onslaught is SP heavy, but worth every point. Add Silent Stalker, and you get an archer who kills things dead way before they can get to her.
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Post by John Robinson on Dec 3, 2014 22:43:46 GMT -5
Shut up Balgair! We all know what you think about Selen let me tell it my own way for a change. What contrasts Selen with Tamilin the most? Stealth: Win the roll you get the first move and don't lose a round of buffs. Lose the roll the enemy gets the first move and you lose a round of buffs. Which way do you want to run your team? Play to a character's strengths and you can't go wrong. Tamilin is all about Stealth she is meant to win the first round initiative and her talents strongly favor Dodge to protect her from ranged and ranged magic damage. She does not possess a talent that raises Parry so melee is something to be avoided. Blacknight is the only Talent in HoS that begins with a 20 round buff at a very low cost so it is meant to be on 24/7 when starting a game she has one more point of Stealth, and 2 more points of Dodge than Selen. Investing a few points in Farsight will allow her to light up a large portion of the battle field, so when she wins the Stealth roll she can fire allot of shots into the enemy before they can close to melee range. With the recent introduction of bows that have extended ranges 7 or 8 increases her effectiveness. Deadly Intuition is to a Thief (ranged) what Dance of Shadows is to a Rogue (melee) this buff should always be active as it stacks % Critical too any attack talent. Selen is all about Melee. Her stealth bonus will rise much more slowly with D-Shad which has Req lvl(6) than Blacknight which has none. She can be very effective at winning the Stealth roll but getting her melee talents on a solid foundation comes first. P-Blades is my lead attack followed by Frenzied Blows but she has always been more effective using these attacks with 2 1-AP blades. Notice how D-Shad provides her with the additional MP a fighter needs to close with the enemy quickly like Vraes Burst of Speed. As a melee fighter Selen will be much happier using heavier armor than the Stealth armor tailor made for Tamilin. The Thief seldom needs to rapidly close the distance to her targets but finding a +1MP ring might be nice. F-Blows vs A-Shot At first glance you might think F-Blows has a huge advantage. Once Tamilin has D-Init that advantage is eliminated. Q-Def vs Blacknight One favors Stealth and Dodge supporting Ranged combat (Tamilin) . The other favors Dodge and Parry which is essential to melee combat defense (Selen). P-Shot vs Silent Stalker. There are obvious advantages to P-Shot being a wedge shaped curse attack. But Silent Stalker curses a target for 8 rounds at 34% Critical and raises Tamilin's accuracy stack that with D-Intuit how many shots do you think it will take for her to bring down a boss with A-Shot after that? S-and-Shad vs R-Onslaught. At level 18 Tamilin acquires crowd control in a wedge attack this can be very effective when Critical Percent attacks are already in play. Note how Selen's Steel and Shadow uses melee attack accuracy and has such a high critical % to me this is obviously provided for a blade fighter to make a quick kill. Conclusion: I had intended this post to prove Tamilin is a liability and needs an upgrade like Vrae's Phalanx Shield it just didn't turn out to be true. My group builds enjoy Stealth but don't rely on it. I admit it feels like my groups do more retreating when she is with them but I have never mastered her talents. I think part of the reason is you need 2 fighters and 2 ranged for a balanced group instead of 1 and 3. It might be interesting to have a Tamilin Thief paired with an all melee Vincent. I purchased Selen the first day she became available and never looked back. But that is because I don't enjoy playing archers and Balgair would never speak to me again (which maybe a good thing). So I voted always using Selen. | Sel | F-Blow(6) | W/8 | +20 dmg. +9 Acc. 9% Crit | | Tam | A-Shot(6) | W/8 | +28 dmg. +8 Acc |
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| | Sel | Q-Defense(6) | 3/36 | +9 Dodge. +10 Parry Req lvl(9) | | Tam | BlackKnight(6) | 3/25 | +7 Stealth. +7 Dodge. 20+Lore |
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| | Sel | D-Shad(6) | 3/28 | +7 Stealth. 7% Crit. +2 MP 8+Lore Req lvl(6) | | Tam | D-Intuit(6) | 3/36 | +5 Acc. 15% Crit. 3+Lore. Req lvl(6) |
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| | Sel | P-Shot(6) | W/16 | +10 Acc. Curse 3T. _6P. -6D. -1AP 4hex wedge | | Tam | S-Stalker(4) | W/17 | -6 Acc Stl Curse +6 Acc 34% Crit 8T Req Lvl(12) |
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| | Sel | S-and-Shad(4) | W/17 | +12 dmg. +6 Acc. 38% Crit Req Lvl(18) | | Tam | R-Onsl(1) | W/10 | +6 dmg. +5 Acc. 2x2 Wedge Req Lvl(18) |
Right from the Beginning you can see Tamilin favors Stealth and Ranged, Selen favors melee. Note the Toughness, Resist and Dodge factors. Tamilin - Higher Dodge, Resistance and Bows favor Ranged combat. Selen - Higher Toughness, Hit pts, 1-H swords favor melee combat. | Level 1 | Thief | Rogue | Advantage | | HP/SP +1 Lvl | 13/7 | 14/7 | Rogue | | +1 Con = +HP | + 18 | + 21 | Rogue | | +1 Int = +SP | + 21 | + 19 | Thief | | Tough Factor | 0.75 | 1.0 | Rogue | | Resist Factor | 1.0 | 0.75 | Thief | | Dodge Factor | 1.0 | 0.75 | Thief | | Dexterity | 6 | 6 | Start | | Dodge | 6 | 4 | Thief | | Constitution | 5 | 5 | Start | | Hit Points | 103 | 119 | Rogue | | Toughness | 3 | 5 | Rogue | | Willpower | 4 | 3 | Thief | | Resistance | 4 | 2 | Thief | | Intelligence | 4 | 5 | Rogue | | Spirit Points | 91 | 102 | Rogue | | Blades | 1 * | 3* | Rogue | | Bows | 3 | 2 | Thief | | Security | 3 | 2 | Thief | | Stealth ** | 3 | 3
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* Tamilin can only use small blades. Selen (Rogue) can use small blades and 1-H swords ** I have Thief advantage in stealth because without special equipment Selen could never get as high as Tamilin. |
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Post by rygar on Dec 3, 2014 22:58:54 GMT -5
I think Selen probably shade it as overall better toon although to be fair I have much less experience using Tamilin. I think party make up has a lot to do with how compelling Selen or Tamilin is
I see their party slot as a damage dealing class for the party and as providing necessary stealth support for survivability of the party. The latter is especially important for ironman mode in higher diffculties
Both Selen and tamilin offers great options for those 2 outlined roles when properly built. The difference is that Tamilin is specifically better as aoe damage but Selen is more for focused damage on a single target and slightly better in picking off dispersed critters at close range.
Tamilin would probably be more suitable for a party setup with someone else fulfilling the role of burst/focused damage allowing her free rein to dish out aoe damage to enemy clusters. For example Vraes running amok with maxed phalanx shield and crushing blow with some point mixed into burst of speed and juggernaut/berserk wielding a 1 ap blade. Or kjartan with a maxed firebolt.
However Selen is arguably best for the single target focused damage dealer role. Plus, I suspect for many including myself, having access to an aoe attack cum aoe ap and defense debuffer at only 5 talent points just make her that bit more compelling
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