High End Juggernaut?

[phaze]

Good luck on the 2-handed Vraes! Ranged damage still compels me to choose shield.

A lot to think about in this thread and only so many times to test versions of Vraes to my preference.

A number of points stand out. I gather from Fallen's posts in other threads that I am a minority player. I disfavor attack talents to a high degree as the numbers are not satisfying. I'll raise attack talents for special abilities (range, AoE, curse effects, etc.) but never for damage unless a spell that raises minimum damage. A chance to roll increased damage doesn't sell it for me unless I can utilize the talent for every attack. Hence, I use a lot of low level attack talents and prioritize curses and buffs. Curse and buffs are guaranteed results, whether defense or offense, and are guaranteed to influence the battle whereas attack talents are a chance.

So, Ferocity is compelling due to its efficiency in talent points (compared to Crushing Blow) and possibly late game when I can make it SP efficient (the early game loot drops are changing this, but loot being loot, my latest party with Vraes could have pushed his SP drain to a total of 9%, not enough sustain Ferocity, in my experience, without critical hits to increase overall damage and drain. Maybe my next play through will be better. Shrug.

Thus my fascination with Berserk Rage and Juggernaut as Vraes most interesting offensive talents. BR is hands down one of the most offensive talent in the game for adding damage output, but the question comes to handling the negatives. BR multiplies with other attack talents or can turn a regular attack into deadliness all the time. Juggernaut is so tempting as Fallen describes above.

Overall, I think a BR Vraes works numbers-wise with a supplemental attack talent. Just a matter of finding the right balance of defense, offense, and pairing abilities from the party. Even with CA, EA, and ToS (Kjartan, Kyera, Tamilin party) accuracy remain a concern in some battles, and I do not want to be stuck raising NM as BoS or SSk allow more diversity of character. I totally agree that strength based weapons give the better offense numbers, but going dex provides an extra 9 melee dice and 22 dice against ranged attacks (assuming max dex). This is very compelling for using BR. The damage output of the weapons is a factor but not so much given their balance.

I think I will test a spear Vraes due to superior weapon stats, allowing better flexibility on other areas and using Juggernaut 7 (need to test this) for added AP capacity. I've noticed the new ToS leaves many enemies with low HP, so I think I can capitalize on that fact, especially using Kjartan as area damage. Kyera will be an off tank, essential starting in Ep 2 given enemy movements.

[En1gma]

One of my best BR builds went PS 6 and BR 5 on the boost-in, Fyona went SoC 5, Righteous Fervor 5, and BA 2. KJ went with some level of PfS, CA, and used Meteoric Shockwave 6 as a major way of keeping damage from landing on V. Vraes went with Spear and Shield, and used CB as his primary attack talent. I would take a good look at BR 5 in particular, because though it takes a huge chunk of Armor/Parry away, it doesn't take it so far as to completely cripple his defense.

He was hitting consistently for 60-75 (three attacks) in the Storerooms, and had decent defensive stats. I wouldn't bring BR past that point until the end game, as BR 5 was a sweet spot before yet another precious Parry die was removed.

[phaze]

Good points. I have looked at the break points of BR, and it goes in clusters, at least regarding parry. There are definitely sweet spots. I'll take a second look at those.

Thanks for the tips.

[En1gma]

Between Fervor and Phalanx, I was able to cancel out the negatives of BR 5 and leave him slightly well off... Fyona became my main tank, and would likely stay that way until Phalanx 10, SoC 10, and enough gear to push him to manageable levels.

On the plus side of all this, building Fy this way, she was able to take some major punishment due to RF 5, and as long as you keep up with PfS, she can push her Armor totals to very good levels. A point into CD and she can tank with the best of them. The other great part about this is it pushes V's crit% high enough to give him a great segway into Juggernaut. once he has PS 10, BR 5, he can drop one or three into BoS, then work on Maxing out Jugs.

[En1gma]

The other way I could see it all working out is go BR 5, Phalanx 6, then BoS to +2 MP, and use him only as a skirmisher.
Fyona and Selen for the main line. Selen goes PS 5, DoS 3, and works on QsD. Fyona goes as above, then maxes out SoC, goes to RF 8, then uses Reckoning for even more AoE/targets for Energizer Bunny Vraes to wash over and get behind the line again. You could make VERY good use of Vincent here with LS 10, Flash Freeze, and a touch of Eye of the Storm to give two characters great chances at a crit.

I may actually go make this group tonight...

[CdrPlatypus]

En1gma Since I am working on Ideas for a 2 handed vraes how about this for a BR build: Classic lore build Stone Skin + Natural Master + BOS, but go ahead and use a shield and 2ap 1 hander most of the time so you get another swing to roll for crit.

Supporting Pfs and RF

So you get Sky High Armor and use increased weapon stats for melee defense instead of parry because they are not impacted by BR's -parry.

Use +dodge from BOS and gear, + later the mirror shield for a little auto block as your ranged defense, plus of course an insane soak from thee +armor skills and since you are going into NM you can ignore strength for awhile and get toughness from lvling con...Just turn Vraes into your own Orcin Beserker/Troll hybrid.

[En1gma]

I think I get you... Don't add a single die that would be stripped away by BR, relying instead on the strong dice that aren't affected. Could be the way to go, honestly-- run him straight into Juggernaut and Rick-roll everything you see.

[wascalwywabbit]

I ran that build idea a bit, had to focus on ssk and NM first, BoS (which I love) had to wait, but that may be my weak strategy and tactics rather than a need for the build. - I still tend a bit towards over aggressive overextended play.

It did work alright after some tweaking.

[En1gma]

Practice, my friend. If you want a real introduction to deliberate play, go look up the Iron Curtain-- all you do is set your line, and let the enemies break upon your shield wall like surf on beach. Unless it's a New Jersey beach. They don't hold up very well.

[phaze]

Jan 23, 2016 17:10:26 GMT -5 En1gma said:

The other way I could see it all working out is go BR 5, Phalanx 6, then BoS to +2 MP, and use him only as a skirmisher.
Fyona and Selen for the main line. Selen goes PS 5, DoS 3, and works on QsD. Fyona goes as above, then maxes out SoC, goes to RF 8, then uses Reckoning for even more AoE/targets for Energizer Bunny Vraes to wash over and get behind the line again. You could make VERY good use of Vincent here with LS 10, Flash Freeze, and a touch of Eye of the Storm to give two characters great chances at a crit.

I may actually go make this group tonight...

I am currently testing something like this out.  Just passed Osk, so a long ways to go.

Party: Vraes, Kjartan, Fyona, and Selen

Vraes will use spear/shield and SSk for an HP pool and armor bonus supported by PfS and RF.  Once available, attacks will be Berserk with Juggernaut and BoS for skirmishing enemies.  Fiona will buff the party and be a tank while Selen will support with PS and develop into a full tank with QsD.  Kjartan supports with CA, PfS, and MS, and a touch of burning blades with 1 for Firestorm for added damage when all else is cursed.

I may dabble in Phalanx to create a solid defensive Vraes for Ep 1 while Selen and Fyona mature.  I likely will respect Vraes in Ep 2 depending on the flow of battles and how much offense is needed.

I have not tried a high HP/armor Vraes before, so I am testing new territory.

[En1gma]

Super Soaker Vraes is fun. He is even more ridiculous when you stack Meteoric Shockwave/Frigid Air.

You may also find that if you get a good head start on SSk, and give him some good Parry/Dodge gear, you might be able to make it work without PS. As SSk gets higher, the Parry/Armor bonuses between low level PS and a higher level SSk become farther and farther... Plus, using PS makes you split skill points, unless you didn't plan on using them. Make sure he has the best Shield/Spear you can give him, and he should be able to make it.

[phaze]

Still in Ep 1 and clearing all areas around Osk. I do love seeing 0 damage pop up. However, enemies that roll on the high end can still damage Vraes, so he is not immune. The 1 pt of Phalanx mixed with SoC allows him to tank pretty well and even block a decent fraction of ranged attacks. It is a 1 pt wonder to ease pressure on incoming damage. No need for more while SoC is raised and equipment picks up in quality after the Ratkin. This is really useful until Fyona and Selen can mature as tanks, allowing Vraes to focus on damage output with Berserk Rage and Juggernaut.

To take advantage of the high HP due to SSk, I may put 1 pt in BF for a low cost heal spell before battle and then laugh as enemies whittle at this HP pool.

[Cory Trese]

Yeah and by Episode 3 a properly constructed Selen is a Dodge tank of the highest order.

On my latest Nightmare game she's regularly 6 tiles deep in the bad guys tanking alone!

[CdrPlatypus]

Jan 26, 2016 15:17:26 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

Yeah and by Episode 3 a properly constructed Selen is a Dodge tank of the highest order.

On my latest Nightmare game she's regularly 6 tiles deep in the bad guys tanking alone!

As much as I like the changes to Tam, Selen definitely wins out for NMI durability

[tran]

I play a build with 1ap dual-weilding daggers for Vreas, and it is super fun. Granted, luck will sometimes favor the enemies, but I can still send big V deep into the enemy's rank and then chip away their health with Tal's 8 range bow. This build got even better after I got Tal some super wicked seath-boosting gears. Now Tal can lead, Vreas scout ahead when a fight occurs, then it is sniping time!!!
And don't even get me started about Vreas's legendary equipment, the dagger I chose, oh ho ho ho, let's just say that any enemies that were lucky enough to survive the arrow barrage simply found their death right after, for Vreas's crushing blow is never ending, and when it critted, it killed!!!