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Post by fallen on Feb 16, 2016 14:21:47 GMT -5
Hi, would it be possible to have actual numbers on how juggernaut actually works? Does weapon type affect result? Does enemy affect result? What does leveling up do to the actual result? As far as nightmare games go, accuracy is #1 stat, and kincaid has group accuracy buff so kincaid better then vraes. Then vincent has group accuracy buff so vincent better then karjtan. Then fiona has curse that makes elemental damage actually do something which combos super well with vincent's buff. Those 3 together are rather boring first act, but explode in effectiveness in the second act (on nightmare). I still prefer the original 4 though, even if a bit less effective overall, i find their character/skill graphics much prettier to look at, so thats the group im playing now, and i do intend to take juggernaut in a couple levels, so I'd like to know more about how it actually works! Anyway, after not playing for 8+months it's nice to come back and see the game still being worked on, just hoping for a bit more quality of life improvements, stuff like +hp buff also healing the missing hp would be so nice. (also, thundering blades and burning blades should really have something special on their level 10 otherwise those talents should never be taken over level 9) Welcome back and thanks for the encouragement! Always fun to have a player return after the hiatus and get to see all the new upgrades. I will work on posting the rules of Juggernaut clearly. |
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matrim
Star Hero
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Post by matrim on Feb 16, 2016 14:27:18 GMT -5
I would have definitely thought 2400 damage would have been with a 2h hammer, doing that damage with a mace and board V is certainly intriguing. Yeah Vincent's damage was AE but because he killed all of them from full I thought it was comparable. I imagine the Vraes killing spree requires a bit of setup too. I look forward to a rule posting on Juggernaut. I have always largely ignored the talent myself.
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Post by narana on Feb 16, 2016 14:43:56 GMT -5
Welcome back and thanks for the encouragement! Always fun to have a player return after the hiatus and get to see all the new upgrades. I will work on posting the rules of Juggernaut clearly. Thanks, i can't wait, i remember playing with that skill a year ago and being really confused about the rules of how it worked. |
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Post by samopop on Feb 16, 2016 16:07:29 GMT -5
Damage is increased overall but would the points have been better spent on Con or Dex to help survive the hits? I guess what I am getting at is I would like to see the strength rule maybe adjusted to grow with +damage instead of being reduced in effectiveness with it. Up until just a little while ago, strength only provided increased accuracy . . . and I still planned on eventually maxing it for my str-weapon-wielding characters. The additional min damage is a nice bonus, but I think the biggest benefit to strength is still accuracy. Actually making a hit instead of missing increases survivability immeasurably! Although the interplay of +dam attacks/items and str-based min damage does reduce the statistical benefit of each other as you pointed out, it is important to keep in mind that they are both positive benefits to damage output even together. A simple rule change that would maintain the effectiveness of +dam throughout the game would be if str added a minimum floor to the damage, but the probability of all of the damage values with the increased floor stayed constant. For example, attacking with 51-70 and a strength of 11 would give a new attack band of 61-70 with 10% chance for each of those values. However, that may be overpowered. As it is currently designed, the increased strength has a maximum effect early in the game and has decreasing effect as the game advances. |
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Post by En1gma on Feb 16, 2016 17:53:14 GMT -5
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Feb 18, 2016 13:09:41 GMT -5
Ok, I played a bit with high end jugg (lvl 6-10) og on pc by jumping them ahead to lvl 64. (Also demonstrated the importance of gear being just as important as the heores skills)
Kyera sacrifice can't keep up, vraes can move too far ahead especially with high BoS added. I'd recommend giving higher lvl sacrifice greater range like firestorm or far sight etc., also that would make it more worthwhile to lvl sacrifice... The sp gained wasn't sufficient to keep it going indefinitely without sacrifice or sp drain.
Vraes being able to storm across 20 squares attacking all the way is cool, but it felt slightly mp heavy and a little ap deprived.
Dmg. was good most of the time, but weapon dependant (and ideally BR), a heavier str based weapon and good str for higher base dmg is definitely desirable.
My 2 cents so far.
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Post by narana on Feb 18, 2016 13:57:48 GMT -5
If you remember, could you post the kind of numbers you were getting back for ap/mp/etc??
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Post by fallen on Feb 18, 2016 14:20:38 GMT -5
It is on my task list for the week to post the exact Juggernaut rules, if that helps. Will get done in the next few days.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Feb 18, 2016 15:10:21 GMT -5
Playing clean up for an entire group of enemies by himself, with 10 mp left, and no ap or sp, is possible. This may also leave him way out from the team and vulnerable.
It's a good killing blow supplement to his regular empowered attacks, but I don't think it could be his primary - too situational and sp intensive. I'd choose one other empowered attack besides juggernaut when things aren't ready to die yet.
The biggest weakness is simply that no-one can keep up if the enemies aren't clustered, not even charged speed Vincent with +2mp gear. The name fits, juggernaut, but it's a bad idea to get him that separate from the group. It does bring the scope of vast dungeon battles with it's use tho.
Well maybe you could give him only defensive talents, nm, BoS, phs, ssk, and only when he's untouchable go for juggernaut, but that's better a respec late game than a single build idea for the whole game. The high dmg of CB and ferocity and broad melee skills are his defining offensive talents thru mid game.
In sum high level juggernaut is good, but is found wanting greater range and mp for others to keep up, particularly the healers, especially if melee focused...
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Post by fallen on Feb 18, 2016 15:20:53 GMT -5
It's a good killing blow supplement to his regular empowered attacks, but I don't think it could be his primary - too situational and sp intensive. I'd choose one other empowered attack besides juggernaut when things aren't ready to die yet. ... Well maybe you could give him only defensive talents, nm, BoS, phs, ssk, and only when he's untouchable go for juggernaut, but that's better a respec late game than a single build idea for the whole game. The high dmg of CB and ferocity and broad melee skills are his defining offensive talents thru mid game. A few % points of SP drain will go a long way to make it a net positive. I've basically stopped using Sacrifice now for my Juggernaut Vraes and am considering respecing Kyera, if it weren't for Tamilin's great need of it with RO. My Juggernaut built is 8 Ju and 8 Berserk Rage, carrying a shield, 1H hammer and wearing super heavy armor. It is the only attack I use. You definitely have to be disciplined and not use all the MP you get  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2016 15:30:42 GMT -5
Playing clean up for an entire group of enemies by himself, with 10 mp left, and no ap or sp, is possible. This may also leave him way out from the team and vulnerable. In your testing, what was your feeling on the end of turn results as far as leftover over MP? You mentioned two cases that happen: 1) having 10 MP left with nothing left to do and 2) leaving Vraes overextended. My thought is with 10 MP Vraes could easily run back to the team and be healed and covered from next turn attacks. Is it more frequent that Vraes is left at the end of a Juggernaut turn with or without MP? |
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Post by fallen on Feb 18, 2016 15:33:25 GMT -5
@rearick - if he got the killing blows, generally with MP. I find the times when he gets over-extended is most when he is chasing that "one more kill" and he has the MP to get out there, smacks an enemy but doesn't get the final killing blow. To really make Juggernaut sing, you need to soften every target with someone else (I use Vincent Lightning Spear and Tamilin RO) and then unleash Vraes. It's important to have Burst of Speed up so that he can reach them will full AP for maximum chance to get kills. Kyera has Holy Retribution 5 so she can tag specific enemies who are on the edge of Vraes' damage range to help make sure he gets kills. It's all about feeding the monster.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Feb 18, 2016 15:45:52 GMT -5
Well you can run back to the group for better defensive position, but hopefully everything is dead already.  It does seem a shame to waste mp gains so often though.  personally I'd like trading half my mp gains for extra chance for ap/sp. Or have the group abilities keep up ... honestly those traveling legs of Vraes in combat makes the game's killing fields feel huge. |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Feb 18, 2016 15:48:18 GMT -5
Playing clean up for an entire group of enemies by himself, with 10 mp left, and no ap or sp, is possible. This may also leave him way out from the team and vulnerable. In your testing, what was your feeling on the end of turn results as far as leftover over MP? You mentioned two cases that happen: 1) having 10 MP left with nothing left to do and 2) leaving Vraes overextended. My thought is with 10 MP Vraes could easily run back to the team and be healed and covered from next turn attacks. Is it more frequent that Vraes is left at the end of a Juggernaut turn with or without MP? Well if you don't have BoS you may not end up with so much extra mp, but I almost always had plenty to spare... |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Feb 18, 2016 18:18:53 GMT -5
You're always gonna step upon your fallen opponent's square, so as long as you don't ping pong to and fro in opposite direction every death blow, you're getting net forward movement in more cases than away to the next enemy for "free". It compounds those extra mp over the course of a battle field. Or so it seemed to me. Low level I'd say storm of steel is superior, more versatile, but once you get jugg up there it is -possibly- better than Kincaid's lvl 18 if used properly set up with team work. You got to get 'em down to killing range of hp, otherwise it's a one off single target. Stomp stomp stomp on their dead bodies. It's so sad that Vraes is the best at killing cripples and invalids (thanks to the rest of the squad nerfing their hp). :-p |
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personally I'd like trading half my mp gains for extra chance for ap/sp. Or have the group abilities keep up ... honestly those traveling legs of Vraes in combat makes the game's killing fields feel huge.