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Post by fallen on Feb 16, 2016 9:42:05 GMT -5
tran - very cool strategy! Using lots of Silent Stalker?
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tran
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Post by tran on Feb 16, 2016 11:07:18 GMT -5
fallen
No actually, I am lving Torrent of steel right now and the result is DEVASTATING!!! Throwing had opened up an entire world for me and the blade skill tree only add in Tal's already high defence. Thx you soooo much for tweaking this skill man!
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Post by fallen on Feb 16, 2016 11:12:42 GMT -5
fallen No actually, I am lving Torrent of steel right now and the result is DEVASTATING!!! Throwing had opened up an entire world for me and the blade skill tree only add in Tal's already high defence. Thx you soooo much for tweaking this skill man! I agree it was a huge improvement to her character and her options. I hope you'll take a minute to update your review on all your markets! |
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tran
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Post by tran on Feb 16, 2016 11:42:26 GMT -5
Absolutely, this game only gets better and deeper!  |
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Post by fallen on Feb 16, 2016 12:08:50 GMT -5
Absolutely, this game only gets better and deeper! Thanks for your support! E4 is especially exciting to me to see how we've grown. If you'd like to send some extra support our way, we hope you'll look at our Patreon. |
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matrim
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Post by matrim on Feb 16, 2016 13:12:21 GMT -5
I always struggle with Vraes too, I just can't find a build on him that is as satisfying as Kincaid. First off, 1 AP weapons just produce more damage than any other type with cursing. Being able to use all your AP and the fact that any bonuses are added unilaterally across all attacks means as the bonuses get better, 1 AP weapons just keep getting more crazy. Secondly, CFW has no downside and even adds to his defense, which is extremely desirable on a tank. Thirdly, any +damage waters down the nice str bonus (and + damage is what Vraes does best) making it feel like building those talents are working against increasing strength. Fourth, especially for ironman, being able to guarantee that the 600 damage swings from an Orcin Warlord don't hit is huge, Vraes just takes too much incidental damage and eventually you are going to roll bad and he is going to fall. Lastly, Flanking Unity is just such a powerful buff that none of Vraes' talents can hold a candle to it. It essentially raises every attack on the whole team the equivalent to 6ish power levels on their empowered attacks, it's insane. Even if Vraes's NM got buffed to go AE it would not really compare to this talent.
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Post by fallen on Feb 16, 2016 13:22:59 GMT -5
Thirdly, any +damage waters down the nice str bonus (and + damage is what Vraes does best) making it feel like building those talents are working against increasing strength. I think this is a misunderstanding of how the Strength rules apply to Damage. +Strength and +Dmg really go hand in hand. |
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Post by En1gma on Feb 16, 2016 13:39:19 GMT -5
I think the most important talent for Vraes' end game is Berserk Rage.
What Kincaid brings to every team is the potential for complete group synergy. Through buffs like FU, and the ability to curse AP with Crippling Strikes (+ it's AoE), his ability to attack at range with TK, he can fill any role you need of him.
Vraes had been and always will be the steady, unwavering hand that provides the brawn for any situation. PS 10 makes him near unhittable at range. SSk 10 turns him into an armored behemoth who can soak damage all day. Nothing in his repertoire let's him be useful to anyone else in the group. I kinda like it that way... Vraes does Vraes, and helps everyone else by absorbing hundreds of damage points that would overwhelm the other members.
I think end game Vraes can be best with Juggernaut and BoS, or with SSk and BR
BR lowers his defenses, yes, but the damage he gets in return makes him capable of dealing more single turn damage than Kincaid, IMO. Take BR, FEROCITY, and a crit, he could be doing 500+ damage per hit with the right setup.
Alternatively, with group AoE and enough damage gear, he can wash over an entire enemy group with Juggernaut, and have enough MP to return to his companions.
Vraes, more than anyone I think, even more so than Fyona, absolutely needs to begin with the end in mind. If your group will lack any major AoE, then IMO BR is the way to go, as he can deal massive amounts of damage to single targets, and methodically remove enemies from the battlefield. If your group is focusing on dealing major AoE, then you need Juggernaut to allow him to clean up everyone else's mess.
Mid game he can drop off, but by slogging through and keeping to your plan, Vraes becomes a monster, just follow the plan.
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matrim
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Post by matrim on Feb 16, 2016 13:41:53 GMT -5
I would love to be wrong but judging from my Fyona's mace hits I think I am right. Strength guarantees that the lowest damage roll is your strength value (for 1h) and to my understanding +damage is not factored in. So if you have 10 strength and a weapon that does 51-70 damage then your damage is actually 60-70. However strength just makes rolls of 1-9 auto 10s so you have a 50% chance to do 60 damage and a 50% chance to do 61-70. A great bonus to be sure as strength is affecting the roll positively 50% of the time. Now factor in +damage. Let's say you have +20 damage, so that means 51-90 damage now. Strength still applies and the damage is rolled, 1-9 are auto increased to 10 and 10-40 are unaffected by your strength value. Strength is now only positively affecting the roll 25% of the time. Adding +20 damage has halved the effectiveness of 10 strength. When looking at Vraes' enhanced attack talents, ferocity and crushing blow stand out to me as the most defining and awesome. However, not even counting Vraes' other gear these talents add far more than +20 damage, further reducing the effectiveness of his strength. The effectiveness goes up as you increase strength but again go down as damage increases (which is going to happen faster than strength increases in any realistic scenario). In episode 1, Fyona was a killer with the strength rules, my go to girl for killing giant rats and beetles, way more effective than even all 3 other characters combined. However as my +damage increased she started flagging behind, and now in episode 3 with her strength being 16 I notice little difference between my old Fyona's damage (in which the new strength rules were not applied) and my new Fyona.
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Post by fallen on Feb 16, 2016 13:48:17 GMT -5
matrim - an interesting read on the rules. I would suggest that thinking of +Dmg as "reducing the effectiveness of my Strength" is very limiting way of looking at the math. It will lead you to avoid adding +Dmg gear and Buffs to your characters and yes, lead them to do lower overall Damage throughout the game. Strength is a safety net when the big dice rolls badly. But, if you want to do big Damage, you need to roll big dice.
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Post by fallen on Feb 16, 2016 13:51:10 GMT -5
Vraes had been and always will be the steady, unwavering hand that provides the brawn for any situation. PS 10 makes him near unhittable at range. SSk 10 turns him into an armored behemoth who can soak damage all day. Nothing in his repertoire let's him be useful to anyone else in the group. I kinda like it that way... Vraes does Vraes, and helps everyone else by absorbing hundreds of damage points that would overwhelm the other members. I think end game Vraes can be best with Juggernaut and BoS, or with SSk and BR BR lowers his defenses, yes, but the damage he gets in return makes him capable of dealing more single turn damage than Kincaid, IMO. Take BR, FEROCITY, and a crit, he could be doing 500+ damage per hit with the right setup. Vraes is and always will be the selfish character in the crew. All of his Buffs are Self-Only for a reason. He is also, in my opinion, the easiest character to play. With Juggernaut + Berserk Rage, I've dealt more than 2,400 Dmg in a single turn in early Episode 4. That's the best I've recorded recently, five kills, and +6 MP but nowhere to go  That said, Kincaid is big fun and I can see why ppl love him. I have the issue with all the characters, they are all hard to pick between. |
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matrim
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Post by matrim on Feb 16, 2016 14:05:07 GMT -5
I still build my characters with +damage, what I am getting at is that beyond episode 1 act 1 strength really gets over shadowed as an effective stat due to the general ability to add +damage. Yes it's a safety net but when you are dealing with +80 damage range (not unrealistic in episode 3 late episode 2) it means that 16 strength is a 20% safety net. That is a large investment for something that only does things 20% of the time. Damage is increased overall but would the points have been better spent on Con or Dex to help survive the hits? I guess what I am getting at is I would like to see the strength rule maybe adjusted to grow with +damage instead of being reduced in effectiveness with it. Maybe each point of stength adding 2% guarantee to the minimum roll instead of a flat number so when stacking damage strength makes a bigger impact. So with 16 strength and 100 damage range (which takes a bit of dedication and SP to get to) you are seeing a 32 damage minimum instead of 16 (all because you invested in FEROCITY!!! which synergized with your strength to turn Vraes into a crazy (and more consistent) killer!).
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matrim
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Post by matrim on Feb 16, 2016 14:09:44 GMT -5
I have definitely beat 2400 btw episode 3 with a strickened group of about 12 ghouls and ghosts, Vincent sundering them all, he killed 7 of them solo, got my God's Wrath achievement off of that one. Definitely fell in love with Vincent more that day (and Fyona for that wicked setup).
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Post by narana on Feb 16, 2016 14:16:52 GMT -5
Hi, would it be possible to have actual numbers on how juggernaut actually works? Does weapon type affect result? Does enemy affect result? What does leveling up do to the actual result?
As far as nightmare games go, accuracy is #1 stat, and kincaid has group accuracy buff so kincaid better then vraes. Then vincent has group accuracy buff so vincent better then karjtan. Then fiona has curse that makes elemental damage actually do something which combos super well with vincent's buff. Those 3 together are rather boring first act, but explode in effectiveness in the second act (on nightmare).
I still prefer the original 4 though, even if a bit less effective overall, i find their character/skill graphics much prettier to look at, so thats the group im playing now, and i do intend to take juggernaut in a couple levels, so I'd like to know more about how it actually works!
Anyway, after not playing for 8+months it's nice to come back and see the game still being worked on, just hoping for a bit more quality of life improvements, stuff like +hp buff also healing the missing hp would be so nice. (also, thundering blades and burning blades should really have something special on their level 10 otherwise those talents should never be taken over level 9)
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Post by fallen on Feb 16, 2016 14:19:58 GMT -5
I have definitely beat 2400 btw episode 3 with a strickened group of about 12 ghouls and ghosts, Vincent sundering them all, he killed 7 of them solo, got my God's Wrath achievement off of that one. Definitely fell in love with Vincent more that day (and Fyona for that wicked setup). Oh yah, sorry -- the number was not counting AoE at all. Just a heavy 2 AP hammer smacking face against E4 monsters. |
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